Did My Grandparents Know Their Grandparents?

This week Randy hit on a topic for Saturday Night Genealogy Fun that is always of interest to me:  who knew whom and whose lives overlapped, and for how long.

He wrote this challenge, 

1. Did your grandparents know their grandparents personally? 
2. Check your family tree, and share your grandparents' names, birth and death years and places, and their grandparents' names, birth and death year and places, and indicate if they knew their grandparents.

Gust Doyle is my paternal grandfather.  
He was born in 1888 in Stoneboro, Pennsylvania, and died in 1933 in Stoneboro, Pennsylvania.

Gust's grandparents were 

• Andrew Doyle who was born in 1836 in England and died in 1908 in Stoneboro, Pennsylvania.  Their lives would have crossed for about 20 years.
• Elizabeth Jane Laws Doyle was born in 1845 in England and died in 1910 in Stoneboro, Pennsylvania.  Their lives would have crossed for about 22 years.
• John Froman was born in about 1841 in Germany and died in West Salem Township, Mercer County, Ohio, in 1871.  Gust did not know this grandfather.
• Catherine Saylor was born in 1844 in Germany and died in 1928 in Stoneboro, Pennsylvania.  Their lives would have crossed for about 40 years.

Beulah Gerner is my paternal grandmother.  She was born in Butler County, Pennsylvania, in 1888.  She died in 1913 in Stoneboro, Pennsylvania.

Her grandparents were

• Christian Gerner was born in about 1820 in Prussia and died in 1899 in Butler County, Pennsylvania.  They would have known each other for about 11 years.
• Mary E. (or Elizabeth) Stahl was born in about 1824 in Germany and died in 1881 in Butler County, Pennsylvania.  Beulah and Mary would not have known each other.
• Dixon Bartley was born in 1805 in Pennsylvania and died in 1900 in Parker Township, Butler County, Pennsylvania.  Their lives would have overlapped for about 12 years. 
• Rebecca Smith was born in Parker Township, Butler, Pennsylvania in 1820.  She died in 1899 in the same location.  She and Beulah would have had 11 years to get to know each other.

W. C. Robert Meinzen is my maternal grandfather.  He was born in 1892 in Steubenville, Ohio, and died in 1979 in Mineral Ridge, Ohio.

His grandparents were

• paternal grandfather not yet found
• paternal grandmother not yet found
• Abel Armitage was born in about 1821 in England.  He lived until at least 1880 but I have not yet found a death record for him.
• Eliza Hartley was born in 1812 in Huddersfield, Yorkshire, England.  She died in 1856 in Trimdon, Durham, England.  She and my grandfather would not have known each other.

Emma Bickerstaff Meinzen is my maternal grandmother.  She was born in 1893 in Steubenville, Ohio, and died in 1973 in Warren, Ohio

Her grandparents were 

• Ellis H. Bickerstaff was born in 1840 in Steubenville, Ohio.  He died in 1907 in McKeesport, Pennsylvania.  Emma was about 14 when he died so they would have known each other. 
• Emma P. Nelson was born in 1845 or 1846, probably in Jefferson County, Ohio.  She died in 1878.  The Emmas would not have known each other.  
• John Thomas Thompson was born in 1850 or 1851 in New Alexandria, Ohio.  He died in 1923 in Cross Creek Township, Jefferson County, Ohio.  Their lives would have crossed for about 30 years.
• Lydia Bell was born in 1851 in Jefferson County, Ohio.  She died in 1930 in Cross Creek District, Wellsburg, West Virginia.  Their lives would have overlapped for about 37 years.   

Yes, nine grandchildren and grandparents would have known each other.
No, four grandchildren would not have know their grandparents.
Unknown acquaintance for three grandchildren/grandparents, but probably not likely.

Thanks so much for the fun, Randy.  This is something that's been in the back of my mind for years.  It would have been more years if you hadn't suggest we do this tonight.

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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1869 Deed of Sale: Robert Nelson, Sr., and Jane C. Nelson to John Fisher, Sr.

I'm pleased to have found an 1869 deed that names Robert Nelson and and identifies his wife as Jane C. Nelson.  This deed is in Deed Record, Volume Q2, Years 1868-1870, p. 354, from the Recorders Office, Jefferson County Courthouse, Steubenville, Ohio.   I found it at FamilySearch with the help of their Full Text Search.  You can see the deed here (with a free FamilySearch account).   

This deed of sale is for coal under the property Robert and Jane Nelson owned.

This is a transcription of the deed.

[ledger page] 354
Know all Men by these Presents, That Robert Nelson Sr and Jane C. Nelson his
wife, of the County of Jefferson, and State of Ohio, for and in consideration of the sum
of Two hundred & Eighty Eight & 75/100 Dollars to them in hand paid, the receipt wh-
ereof is hereby acknowledged have granted bargained and sold and by these presents
do Grant, Bargain, Sell, Convey and Confirm unto, John Fisher Sr of the County
of Jefferson and State of Ohio, his Heirs, or Assigns, all the Coal underlying
the following described Land, Excepting therefrom the upper vein, situate in
Steubenville Township, Jefferson County Ohio, Being a part of the Red house
farm in Range No one and section No 34, and described as following, towit
Beginning at the Stake in Odbert's run, where, a beach tree 10 inches in diam-
eter bears S. 63 1/2^o E. 88. links, the same being the North west corner of said
Nicholson's tract of land, Running thence S 8 1/2^o, 19 perches to a rock, in the run
Thence N 75 1/4^o E, 40 perches to a Stone top of the hill, Thence N. 31^o W. 5 7/10
perches to a Hickory tree, Thence N. 17^o W, 10 4/10 perches to a small white oak
in Aleaus & Scotts South line, Thence S. 79 1/4^o W, 36 3/10 perches to the place of
Beginning, Containing Four Acres, and one Eighth, be the same more or less

[ledger page] 355
said Coal thus conveyed being what is known as the Shaft vein,  To have and to hold, The Coal
underlying the above described Tract of Land, Except the upper veign [sic] with the privilege of
removing the same by approaches from other lands, unto the said John Fisher Sr his Heirs,
and Assigns Forever.  And the said Robert Nelson Sr. for himself his Heirs, Executors,
and Administrators, hereby covenants with the said John Fisher Sr, his Heirs and Assigns
that he is lawfully seized of the premises aforesaid, that they are Free and Clear from all
incumbrances whatsoever, and that he will Forever Warrant and Defend the privilege
of removing the said Coal unto the said John Fisher Sr his Heirs and Assigns against
all lawful claims whatsoever, to said Coal, In Testimony whereof, the aforesaid Robert
Nelson Sr. and Jane C. Nelson, have hereunto set their hands and seals this 29^th day
of April A.D. 1869.  Before signing all the interlineations are approved of,
Signed, Sealed and Delivered in Presence of,       
{Circled, on three lines:]   50 cts / Rev[enue] Stamps / Cancelled 
M. O. Junkin                                           Robert -his X mark- Nelson Sr. [seal]
John Lyle                                                Jane C. Nelson  [seal]
The State of Ohio, Jefferson County, S.S.  On the 29th day of April, in the year of our
Lord, One thousand Eight hundred and sixty nine before the subscriber a justice of
the Peace within and for said County personally appeared the said Robert Nelson Sr
and Jane C. Nelson who signed and sealed the foregoing deed, and acknowledged the 
signing and sealing thereof to be their act and deed for the purpose therein Exp-
ressed, And the said Jane C. Nelson wife of the said Robert Nelson Sr being by
me Examined, separate and apart from her said husband, and the contents of the said
Deed being made known to her by reading the same in her presence she did de-
clare upon such separate Examination, that she did voluntarily sign, seal and 
acknowledged the same, and that she is still satisfied therewith.
State of Ohio, Jefferson County, S.S.
Recorded May 26, 1869   M J Urquhart, Recorder B. H.   M. O. Junkin  J. P.

Information garnered from this record

• Robert Nelson was referred to as Robert Nelson Sr in this document.  Does this differentiate him from Robert Nelson or  Robert W. Nelson?  My guess is that Robert Nelson and Robert Nelson Sr are the same person and Robert W. Nelson is his son.  More work to do here....
• Robert Nelson Sr.'s wife is named as Jane C. Nelson.  This supports other documents.
• Robert and Jane C. owned property in the Red House Farm tract, Range One, Section 34 (in Steubenville Township, Jefferson County, Ohio).
• Robert and Jane sold the right to "all the Coal underlying the following described Land, Excepting therefrom the upper vein..."   to John Fisher, Sr., in 1869.
• The new owner could retrieve the coal by approaches from other lands. 
• Robert Nelson signed his name with an X, so not able to read and write.  Jane did not sign with an X which, I assume, means she could read and write. 

Thoughts, Comments, Observations

• Robert Nelson would have been about 69 years old at the time of this sale. 
• He was identified as a coal miner or coal digger in census records so it doesn't surprise me that he was involved with coal in this way, too. 
• This is not my first ancestor who had a coal mine under his property, but it is the first ancestor I know of who sold the coal for someone else to dig and retained ownership of the land above.
• Revenue stamps (also known as deed stamps or tax stamps) looked similar to postage stamps and were used to indicate payment of the taxes or fees for the transfer of property.  Many thanks to Paulette and Linda for commenting on a previous post to clarify "Rev Stamps."  (I originally read it as "Reo Stamps.")
• The value of 50 cents in 1869 for the revenue stamps would now be worth about $12.00.
• The value of $288.75 (or about $72.00/acre) in 1869 would now be worth about $7,027.00 (or about $1,757.00/acre).  (This information comes from Measuring Worth.)  
• About Red House Farm in Steubenville Township.
  From an 1862 deed at FamilySearch I learned that it was "... formerly the property of Alexander Wells, lying immediately below the town of Steubenville, it being the land heretofore known as the pasture ground on the North side of said place..." Alexander Wells was the son of Bazaleel Wells, founder of the city of Steubenville.  I've made a request to the Steubenville Public Library to have copies of a map and newspaper advertisement which I hope will clarify the location of Red House Farm.

For anyone who wonders how I'm related to Robert and Jane Nelson:  my mom, Audrey Meinzen Doyle --> Emma Bickerstaff Meinzen --> Edward Jesse Bickerstaff --> Ellis Bickerstaff + Emma Nelson --> Robert and Jane Nelson.

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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Tip for Using FreeReg to Search for Birth and Death Dates

FreeReg is an index to church parish registers in the British Isles.  It's a great resource for finding baptisms, marriages, and burials in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.  It can also aid in finding birth or death dates.

If searching baptisms hoping to find a birth date, you may well find one because both dates are sometimes recorded.  But it's important to remember that baptisms happened after a birth and not on the birth date.  And sometimes those baptisms happened several years after a birth.  When you put in the search years for a baptism, be sure to extend the date at least several years after the child was born.  

Burials usually happened within days of death so no need to extend the death year unless you don't know it. 

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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Two Questions about an 1869 Jefferson County, Ohio, Deed

The image below comes from an 1869 deed of sale from Robert Nelson and his wife Jane C. Nelson, found on FamilySearch (which you should be able to view at the link after you sign in).

Question 1 
In the circle on the left I can easily decipher the top and bottom lines ("50 cts" and "Cancelled," but I'm having trouble with the middle line.  It looks like "ReoStamps."  If that's what it says, what does it mean?  If that's not what to says, what does it say and what does it mean?

Question 2 
Robert used an X for "his mark."  Jane did not.  Should I assume that Robert could not read oe write but that Jane could?  Or did the clerk neglect to have Jane put her mark?

Obviously they are not earth-shattering questions but in a genealogical sense, they are of interest to me.  

Thank you so very much for any help you can offer.

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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SNGF -- The Fathers in My Tree

Randy Seaver's suggestion for Saturday Night Genealogy Fun this week was this:

It's Father's Day on Sunday.  This week, tell us about the fathers in your tree -- their names, their birth and death years and locations, their occupations, the number of spouses, the number of children, etc.  Go back at least four generations if possible through your known second great-grandfathers.

My Father  
Lee Doyle   (b. 1913 Pennsylvania, d. 1987 Ohio) 
steel mill foreman, jeweler, insurance salesman,
1 spouse, 3 children (1 son, 2 daughters)


My Grandfathers
Gust Doyle   (b. 1888 Pennsylvania - d. 1933 Pennsylvania) 
farmer, coal miner 
two spouses, 2 children with first wife (1 son, 1 daughter)

William Carl Robert (Bob) Meinzen   (b. 1892 Ohio - d. 1979 Ohio)
electrician, barber
one spouse, 4 children (4 daughters)  


My Great-Grandfathers
William (Billy) Doyle   (b. 1863 England - d. 1941 Pennsylvania) 
coal miner, farmer
one spouse, 3 children (2 daughters, 1 son)

Fredrick K. Gerner   (b. 1847 Germany - d. 1926 Pennsylvania)
farmer
one spouse, 16 children (10 daughters, 6 sons)

Henry Carl Meinzen   (b. 1837 Prussia - d. 1925 Ohio) 
gardener, carpenter, grocer 
one spouse, 15 children (7 sons, 6 daughters, 2 unknown)

Edward Jesse Bickerstaff   (b. 1871 Ohio - d. 1945 Ohio)
carpenter
one spouse, 9 children (5 sons, 4 daughters)


My Great-Great-Grandfathers
Andrew Doyle   (b. 1836 England - d. 1908 Pennsylvania) 
coal miner, grocer 
two spouses, 14 children with second spouse (7 sons, 7 daughters)

John Froman   b. (abt. 1841 Germany - d. 1871 Pennsylvania) 
coal miner 
one spouse, 7 children (4 sons, 3 daughters)

Christian Gerner   (b. abt. 1820 Prussia - d. 1899 Pennsylvania) 
farmer 
one spouse,  6 children (4 sons, 2 daughters)

Dixon Bartley   (b. 1805 Pennsylvania - d. 1900 Pennsylvania) 
farmer 
one spouse, 9 children (5 daughters, 4 sons)

Carl Meinzen   (b. and d. years and locations unknown but probably Germany)
occupation unknown
number of spouses unknown, at least two children (1 son, 1 daughter)

Abel Armitage   (b. abt 1821 England - d. unknown) 
coal miner 
two spouses, 2 children with first spouse (2 daughters)

Ellis H. Bickerstaff   (b. 1840 Ohio - d. 1907 Pennsylvania) 
carpenter 
three spouses, 4 children with first spouse (2 sons, 2 daughters)

John Thomas Thompson   (b. abt. 1850 Ohio - d. 1823 Ohio) 
laborer, junk dealer 
one spouse, 9 children (7 daughters, two sons)

Thank you for the fun, Randy!

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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A Photograph for All Eternity

On the day all these photos were taken, none of the men, children, women who posed innocently in front of the camera could have thought that that moment would represent them for all eternity.

Valerie Perrin in Fresh Water for Flowers, p. 40, ¶2 

I don't have a vast collection of family photographs.  Perhaps that's why some of the few I do have have become indelibly ingrained in my memory.  They bring me joy at odd moments when I remember them. 

• My mother as a girl with a huge white bow in her hair, standing with her sister.  How did she keep that bow in place?!
• My nephew as a 3-year-old in a bike carrier behind his father holding an umbrella.  Almost 60 years after it was taken, this photo still makes me chuckle when I think of it.
• My grandfather's family sitting on a hill in the grass with half the family looking as angry as all get-out, some of the others with snickers on their faces.  What happened in the half hour before that photo was taken and who will be in trouble after they get up?
• My father as a young man in work clothes standing outside the barn with a pipe in his mouth and thumbs hooked under his arms.  A show-off, or did he manage some great accomplishment?
• My grandmother, my sister and I, and our cousins coming up from the lake, soaked to the bone.  I remember those summer days.
• My great-grandfather Fred as a young man with a bald head and big mustache.  I always imagined him as tall with lots of dark hair.
• My great-grandmother Elvira standing with one of her daughters, with both their heads tipped to their right at the same angle.  Does she have the same eye problem I have in which the lenses align only if her head is tipped slightly?

Some of these photos make me laugh, many I wish I knew the background stories.  Others I'm just grateful to have.  And I'm sure, as Valerie Perrin says, none of the people probably imagined they'd be remembered this way for all eternity.

Do you have photographs of ancestors that are indelibly imprinted in your mind?

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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When the Index Is Wrong - A Search Tip

The old indexes in the county records volumes are not always accurate, and I'm sure they can be inaccurate in a variety of ways.  This was my experience with one way an index can be wrong.

At FamilySearch I found the index in the county record book with "Robert Nelson et ux" listed, indicating that I could find his deed in Volume Q2 on page 345.  He's the second from bottom line on the image below.  

I found Volume Q2 with deed records at FamilySearch.  Since FamilySearch had not yet digitally indexed this volume, I needed to click a few times to find page 345.  And when I arrived, there was no Robert Nelson on the page.  Assuming I'd made a mistake, I looked through the digital film images again, returning to page 345, with no Robert Nelson.

Was the whole index wrong (or had I made a mistake) or was this just one error?  I decided to see if there was anyone else in the index on or near that page and saw that yes, directly below the line with Robert Nelson was a person on page 355.  When I found page 355, yes, indeed, the person the index stated would be there was there.  So the index was at least partially accurate.  I began to page backward and there, on the next previous page, I found my Robert Nelson et ux.  He was on page 354 instead of 345.  The person who typed the original index for the volume had transposed two digits.

So, if you don't find your ancestor on the page the index lists, check to see if the creator of the index transcribed a few digits.

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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Robert Wilson, Are You Really Robert Nelson?

Most of us genealogists have likely had the challenging experience of not finding an ancestor in a census record where we think that ancestor should be.  It can be frustrating.  Since there are 20 years between three census records we have to wonder if the ancestor moved away from the area, then moved back.  Or whether the census taker missed the family altogether.  Or whether the census taker misheard or wrongly recorded the name.  So many possibilities and each might take a different approach to solve.

I've been diving into census records for Robert Nelson and his family.  In 1840, 1850, and 1870 he and his family were living in Steubenville Township, Jefferson County, Ohio.  Of those three censuses, only in the 1850 and 1870 records are names and ages of (probable) family members listed but no relationships are declared.  Trying to find him in 1860 has required more effort.  I considered many possibilities but resorted to searching page by page through the Steubenville Township entries to see if I could find him and his family.  They are not there, at least under the name of Robert Nelson.

However, I found a family with the head of household identified as Robert Wilson in the 1860 Census, living in Steubenville Township, Jefferson County, Ohio.  See the 1860 image below (imaged edited for clarity).  Or see a digital image of the 1860 census page here at FamilySearch (with a free account).

In 1850, these are the people listed with Robert Nelson. 
>Robert Nelson, 50 [b. ~1800]; occupation was coal digger, born England
    Jane, 45, [b. ~1805], born England
    Daniel, 24, [b. ~1826], born England
    Elizabeth, 18, [b. ~1832], born Pennsylvania
    William, 17, [b. ~1833], born Ohio
    John, 14, [b. ~1836], born Ohio
    Robert, 10, [b. ~1840], born Ohio
    Thomas, 8, [b. ~1842], born Ohio
    Alice, 6, [b. ~1844], born Ohio
    Emily, 4, [b. ~1846], born Ohio
    Mary, 1, [b. ~1849], born Ohio

In 1860, these are the people listed with Robert Nelson or Robert Wilson
>Wilson, Robert, 60 years, [born ~1800], miner, born England  (Robert also owned property.)
    --- Jane, 54, [b. ~1806], born England
    --- John, 23, [b. ~1837], born Ohio
    --- Robert, 21,[b. ~1839], born Ohio
    --- Thomas, 18, [b. ~1842], born Ohio
    --- Emma, 15, [b. ~1845], born Ohio
    --- Mary, 11, [b. ~1849], born Ohio
    --- Anna, 10, [b. ~1850], born Ohio

In 1870, these are the people listed with Robert Nelson
>Nelson, Robert, 70, {b. ~1800], coal miner, born England  (Robert also owned property)
    Nelson, Jane, 64, [b. ~1806], born England
    Nelson, Annie, 19, [b. ~1851], born Ohio

This is the comparison of names and ages of individuals in census records in 1850, 1860, and 1870, or for the younger children, in 1860 and 1870:
Robert at 50, 60, and 70, always born in England, always a coal miner
Jane at 45, 54, 64, always born England
Daniel, Elizabeth, and William appear with their parents in only the 1850 census
John at 14 and 23
Robert at 10 and 21
Thomas at 8 and 18
Emily/Emma at 4 and 15
Mary at 1 and 11
Anna/Annie at 1 and 10 (in 1860 and 1870)

The names and ages seem to align across the census records from year to year, but is that enough for me to claim that the 1860 census with Robert Wilson as head of household is really Robert Nelson?  I would like to say yes, but I hesitate.  Have you had a similar experience?

I searched for Robert Wilson in 1850 and 1870 in Steubenville Township, Jefferson County, Ohio, but did not find anyone with that name.  That does not discount that Robert Wilson may have moved into the county in time for the 1860 census, and then moved away.  But where would Robert Nelson have been in 1860?  I haven't found him anywhere in that census.

I intend to look at neighbors of Robert Nelson to see if that helps clarify that Robert Nelson and Robert Wilson may or may not be the same person.

Would you consider Robert Wilson to be Robert Nelson with this information?  If you have thoughts or ideas of how else I can search and confirm, or next steps  I could take, please share!  I'd be grateful.

—Nancy.

Copyright © 2025 Nancy Messier.  All Rights Reserved. 
Do not copy or use any content from this blog without written permission from the owner. 
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